Lucy O’Hagan takes us on a journey exploring ancestral ways and rewilding, foraging and nature connection. Why do it and how relevant is it in a hyper connected digital world?
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About Lucy O’Hagan
Lucy is an ancestral skills teacher, Rites of passage guide & Forest School practitioner. Lucy is the founder of ‘Wild Awake’, an organisation which seeks to rekindle environmental and cultural resilience through the (re)learning of ancestral and traditional skills in nature. As part of this organisation, Lucy also directs the ‘Phoenix Forest School’, located in Dublin city centre, and the ‘True Nature’ youth Rites of Passage programme.
Lucy is passionate about supporting people to re-establish connection with themselves, their communities and to nature, of which we are a part. She is particularly interested in rewilding and rekindling the knowledge, skills and ceremonies we once knew so intimately, which cultivate deep belonging to the land.
Lucy teaches classes for adults in a variety of places across Ireland. She facilitates week-long foraging immersions in Donegal, long-term rewilding programmes, hide tanning camps, as well as foraging and ethnobotany workshops in Dublin and Wexford.
Lucy has most recently co-produced ‘Airmid’s Journal: The Irish journal of foraging, folklore, myths, magic and rememdies’ which is available to purchase through the Wild Awake website. Lucy feels most at home wandering through the woods, following animal trails & nibbling on what food or medicine nature has to offer.
Robin: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of the eatweeds podcast. My name is Robin Harford and you’ll find show notes over at eatweeds.co.uk. Today I interview Lucy O’Hagan from Wild Awake in Ireland. And I brought her on because I’m very interested in her work that waves the threads of foraging, rewilding and nature connection.
So welcome Lucy. Thanks for coming on the show.
Lucy: [00:00:31] Hello.
Robin: [00:00:34] The journey, the journey from Northern Ireland. Belfast. Tension. Sectarianism. What’s your journey into the wild?
Well, I was born in Belfast in 1989. So I lived through and remember the signing of the good Friday agreement. I remember very clearly standing on the corner of the street with a group of kids, you know, talking about this as kids do interested in the politics of the world and how we were going to continue to be able to play outside if this was happening all around us.
So our priorities were in line. Maybe if the rest of the worlds weren’t . So growing up in Belfast and then moving to a small town in County Down, which was also a heavily sectarian town, you’re always very acutely aware as a child and as a person growing up in Northern Ireland to what side you belong. To what you need to say if somebody asks you for your name depending on where you are. I suppose, like what has brought me to where I am now is this hunger for a deeper belonging. This hunger for a belonging that goes beyond religion or gender or sexuality or ability. All of these ways in which we experience oppression in our lives.
Lucy: [00:02:16] And that’s what has brought me to being out in nature. And it was always the place that I went as a child to feel safe and to feel that sense of nourishment and that sense of belonging with things that were constant and yet always changing.
Robin: [00:02:38] So you, you seem to have done an awful lot. You did social anthropology. And then you ended up on an Island. Is that right? Somewhere?
Lucy: [00:02:48] I went traveling for a long time, and then went to university because that’s what you’re supposed to do. I studied social anthropology because my sister had studied it and she would always come back and tell me the most incredible stories about people’s different cosmologies and different ways of relating to the world. And it was just so fascinating to me, to learn about all these different ways of being, and experiencing the world.
I studied French as well, because I thought, well, I mean, if I don’t get a job in social anthropology, at least I can be a translator, obviously that worked out perfectly. As part of the French, we had to do an Erasmus year and while everybody else in my class was going to La Rochelle or Paris, I was like, okay, there are all these departments or these sort of ex colonies of France.
So I find myself on an Island which was beside Madagascar. So I was there for eight months and then when I finished university, I went and worked in Guadalupe in the Caribbean. And that was my first kind of experience of environmental education. So in reunion I spent so much time connecting to the nature there and it’s such an incredible, incredible place with really wild nature.
You’re foraging, mangoes and avocados. It’s so exotic. I remember the first time I ate a pineapple, I cried because I realized that I’d been lied to all of my life about what a pineapple actually tasted like. Such a special experience . Those experiences have shaped a lot of, of who I am now and that desire to live in a way that’s connected to nature wherever I find it.
Robin: [00:04:35] Coming back to Ireland, to where you are now, it seems that one you are an instructor on what I would call primitive technology. I don’t really like that word, non-industrial technology. Foraging, which came first, was it bushcraft and all that kind of survival stuff that grabbed you or the, the weaving or whatever. What initially caught your attention? What pulled you in?
Lucy: [00:05:06] I suppose just start by saying the words that I use to use are ancestral skills and ancestral arts, obviously primitive, having such a pejorative connotation. Foraging felt like a bit of a constant, I had the experience growing up where my mom would bring us out foraging blackberries, or puffball s. Gardening and that connection to plants was there for a long time.
And as a young punk in Belfast, homebrewing was always very high on the agenda and free food was very high on the agenda. So yes, it made sense at the time. And that was the aim was as many liters of natural beer as possible.
And it wasn’t until really that I did my forest school training, in 2014 that I kind of came back to this place of nature, being the place that I felt safest, that I felt like this strong sense of belonging. And that really like brought me to life. As well as revealing to me, the ways that I had hidden myself from myself. I suppose I often think with nature connection, it’s not always, this really awe inspiring, beautiful thing, it can also be something that brings up a lot of grief and a lot of strong, hard emotions for us as well.
Then my forest skill training and I was just so hungry for more after it. It’s an incredible training and the trainers that I work with as a trainer, they were very much coming from the kind of eight shields methodology . It was developed in the States. A person called Jon Young, who’s very much at the heart of that methodology. And it’s a way of working with the directions to, not only design workshops, but also as a kind of cultural healing tool. And it’s something that I would dip in and out of as a kind of approach to nature connection. I tend not to be very dogmatic in my approach. I draw from lots of different places in my facilitation. The training is a transformative training and it brings up a lot for people, particularly around those feelings of disconnect and grief and where did we lose this knowledge along the way?
So it was after doing that training that I found John Ryder in the Woodcraft school down in Sussex and I made the journey over there, once a month for about two years. I learned really intensively from him about ethnobotany and bushcraft and wildlife tracking, which really transformed the way in which I view the world.
And after studying with him for two years, I came across ancestral skills. I did this year long bushcraft instructors course because I didn’t know what else was out there. And to me this was all I knew at the time. And I sense that it wasn’t entirely for me.
Bushcraft can be such a male dominated, quite military style of domination over nature can be like, definitely not everybody in that community approaches it in that way. For me it didn’t always sit right with me. Then I met my teacher Lynx Vilden and from there started these epic journeys with her of living outside.
We lived in a cave in France for a month and journeyed around the ancient area of the Dordogne. And we lived up in Northern Sweden for three months in the forest there. And that was all about learning ancestral skills. So yes, foraging and foraging for our food and preserving and drying our food for longer journeys.
And also hide tanning and clothes making and toolmaking, using plants for fiber and for dyes, and really like bringing together all of the threads that I’d already been exploring. In a practical sense, we were going out on journeys and taking these things with us and eating wild food and also on a deeper community level. How you do we live together for one month for three months , how do we tend to our griefs collectively? How do we share our joy and play together? It was a valuable experience. It’s the way that I love to live my life. I wish I could do more of, but that I’m trying to facilitate now for people here in Ireland.
Robin: [00:09:58] I’ve got an impression that somehow you work a lot with young people, children. Or are you broad spectrum, are you intergenerational teacher?
Lucy: [00:10:07] I am much more broad spectrum now. When I began, I was predominantly working with children through the forest school.
And now I have an amazing team of people that are running the forest school and doing an incredible work there with the young people. And my focus is lying with the rites of passage development and Ireland for teenagers. And then also these immersive programs and weekends and weeks for adults.
Robin: [00:10:33] So the rites of passage I’m curious. Partly because I have a bit of resistance and issues around cultural appropriation. I’m really quite hardcore on it actually. So I know that you’re also very conscious of that. When you say rites of passage, take us through what one, what is a right Rite of passage? Cause it’s kind of one of those phrases that we kind of know, but do we really know? So I want to know how you define it from your point of view. And also what is the process and purpose? What’s the reason to do a Rite of passage.
Lucy: [00:11:20] Firstly, thank you for your concern about cultural appropriation. I think it’s a really serious issue and something that I’m always very mindful of in my work or at least try to be in the ways that I can see. So rites of passage. Essentially at its essence, it’s like marking the transitions in our lives. That could be the transition from birth. The transition from childhood into young adulthood, these coming of age ceremonies, anything could be a Rite of passage, like giving birth and choosing to commit to a person to enter into elderhood.
It’s a way of intentionally marking these transitions in our lives and it feels very potent to talk about this at this time of year , like Samhain this festival of what is the Celtic new years happening tomorrow? And it’s an intense time of shedding and of letting go and of death of things that no longer serve us.
And I suppose, rites of passage is that letting go of a way of life that has no longer serving us saying thank you to that. And entering into a new phase of our life. And I suppose the important thing at the core of rites of passage, which it’s so hard for us to happen in this day and age, but is that witnessing by your community or by your family or by your peers that you have stepped into this new way of life.
And that’s, what’s so often missing because we don’t have that any more. We might not have that community, or if I’m working with a young person, when they’ve had a kind of transformative experience and then they go back into school and it’s like, nothing’s changed. So that’s something that I’m really interested in with this work is how, that ripples out through the community and in terms of rites of passage and cultural appropriation, I think it’s really important to remember that rites of passage are our birthright.
And that there are many pancultural ways that rites of passage show up. And there were rites of passage in Ireland. There are caves here that are are believed that people went in for that kind of rites of passage, or vision fasts. I think the important thing with that, and certainly what I’m trying to do in the development of rites of passage here in Ireland, it looking to what rituals already exist.
We have a huge record of folklore here. And we’re so lucky to have so much access to this and finding the things that are culturally significant to the people here and trying to revive that as a process of decolonisation in Ireland. There are lots of different ways to approach the rites of passage.
The classic kind of framework of it is that there’s a moment of, or a time of severance of severing ourselves from the life that we once knew a period of liminal time in the middle where people go through and have these transformative experiences and then the return. So the coming back to the community and being witnessed in those changes.
Rites of passage are not something that most of us experience and actually, we see the hunger for rites of passage in young people in the ways in which they try to initiate themselves.
And certainly for me as a young person, the ways in which I tried to initiate myself through drink or drugs or self-harm. It’s like when we are not witnessed in these changes by our wider community or society, we try to grow ourselves up in whatever unhealthy, cultural ways that we’ve internalised.
So there’s a quote by Michael Meade I believe it is that i f the young people are not initiated into the village, they’ll burn the village down . So it’s working with this fiery time of adolescence that’s so potent, and our society is so fearful of adolescents because they see, and they feel this fire in them.
And rather than directing that fire towards the very real problems that we’re facing in the world, redirecting that fire of , what do we do about climate change? What do we do about all these issues of polarisation in our societies? They are shunned, they’re told that they’re just moody, grumpy teenagers, and we don’t want to listen to them when actually they have so much to offer the world.
It’s a powerful, powerful process and it’s such huge work. It’s work that’s called me for a long time and working with young people and seeing how especially through forest school, they were having these really incredible, like intimate moments with each other and with nature.
And then basically as soon as they got to 12, I would lose them. And they would go to secondary school and either they don’t have time or it’s not cool anymore, or they have lots of other things to worry about. Um, so it’s like, okay, well, what is missing here? Um, which is what brought me to rites of passage.
And I did my own very intentional rites of passage last year, and which was a classic five day vision fast. So five days without food in a wild place and sitting with my intention and what it was that I was stepping into. And for me, it was very intentionally stepping into providing rites of passage whilst also weaving in these ancestral skills.
We’re teaching young people how to forage, how to weave baskets, how to track animals, how to light fires, and providing them with the skillset of these are these tools and nature where it’s so hard to deny you’re belonging to something much bigger than yourself.
And then also combining those ancestral skills with the kind of interpersonal skills of conflict navigation or understanding their life’s journey. So many things, gender, sexuality, binaries, consent, all of these things that help us to help them navigate being a young person today.
Because I don’t know what that’s like really, it was hard enough in the early two thousands . It feels like there’s such a huge diversity of issues that they’re facing.
Robin: [00:17:57] Following on from that and this concept of rewilding, again, it’s a word that’s put out there that is used, but it also seems that there’s a different understanding of what that word means. So in the context of your work, in the context of transition, rites of passage, whether that’s young people or middle-aged people or elder people, how do you see rewilding and how would you define it?
Lucy: [00:18:37] It’s a word that’s used from everything to sell shoes to vast landscapes. For me it’s about healing. It’s about healing ourselves and healing our cultures and healing nature, and recognizing ourselves as a part of that.
And knowing that when we’re healing ourselves, we’re also healing culture and we’re also healing the earth. It’s about living a life in service, so service to the younger generations and to the future generations. Preserving wildness in whatever form that takes. And it’s such a word that’s loaded with so many different images and connotations for people, the need to preserve that wildness, obviously in the world around us and that diversity. And also in ourselves and in our cultures on particularly now, also recognizing the importance of diversity in our cultures and in our societies and our communities, which is what develops resilience.
Robin: [00:19:46] Rewilding often decolonising. How do you define decolonising?
Lucy: [00:19:56] I suppose when I think about it in the context of Ireland and actually all around the world my ancestors have both been colonised and been colonisers And all of our ancestors have not to put things into binaries, the ability to both oppress and to be oppressed. For me I suppose what I witnessed. And what I learned about here is the process of colonisation was in cutting people off from the roots, from the land, from their traditional ways of life, from their language and bringing in this homogenisation of culture. A culture of binaries, a culture of oppressions and so many ways of racism of white supremacy and rewilding for me is so much to process of, challenging these narratives within ourselves.
Being aware of our privileges and of the oppressions that we fear simultaneously and working to make ourselves aware of undeveloped empathy for other people that are experiencing more oppression than ourselves. And how we can use our privileges to lift those people up as well, because it’s about developing resilience in our communities.
And I actually like to bring it back to wildlife tracking. That’s taught me so much about this, tracking is one of our oldest skills and people talk about it as in like it, it helped our brain to develop into what it is now that we’re able to draw a link between this track on the ground an a certain individual animal.
It’s such an amazing process, but for me whenever you come across a track or a sign. We practice this thing called holding the question. So not jumping to a conclusion of what you see, I am of taking time to slow down and to gather evidence and to listen to other people’s perspectives and to develop empathy with a being whose life you can’t really understand, but that you can begin to develop empathy for it just teaches me so much in those lessons.
It’s such a powerful process. I think all of these ancestral skills and particularly foraging as well can teach us so much about what it is to be human. To feel looked after in the world and to feel like a sense of belonging to the place that we find ourselves in. We might not necessarily have a long line of ancestors who come from that place, or even any line of ancestors that come from that place. But it’s like when we just begin to get to know the birds outside our window or where our water comes from or what plants, we find that our front door it’s like this feeling of home making, that is undeniably there and that we can connect with on a really intimate level.
Robin: [00:23:18] You mentioned home just then and for me it threw up the word community. And that often in this very distracted, destructive culture, that community is just not around and even more so with the lockdowns that happen. And someone once flipped the word of community. Cause normally when I was thinking community, I was thinking human and yet community now to me is far more expanded to include not just human, the non-human world as well. I find with foraging that a lot of the time, I’m sitting, foraging, sitting, foraging, sitting, observing, feeling into that landscape. And that actually that by default, if we can get into that zone, what I suppose the psychologist called flow, where there’s a dissolving of self, not in a complete kind of like taking a lot of acid and just dissolving. There’s a loosening of that boundary, it’s more fluid and subtle. And from that comes the acknowledgement by default of things like diversity and then. That comes out with like invasive plants, because I know some rewilding communities, they don’t want any invasive plants. So-called invasive plants, guest plants. Someone decided to use that word, which I think is a really nice word because whoever finds themselves on a plot of land. If they not originally from there are a guest, not an yeah. Well, they were brought here. They were either brought here or they made their way here. So as metaphor, foraging encompasses everything from certainly from my understanding that you’ve been discussing.
So I want to pick back up on your time in France when you were with a group of people doing a rewilding exploration. My personal thing with food foraging is I’m always trying to get back to pre-industrial processes. Ancestral processes. And I’m also really curious about hunter-gatherers. So I go very binary with this most probably. Just to make the point, there are nomadic hunter-gatherers and there are static, tribal hunter-gatherers. So nomadic being bands. Static tends to be tribe. And by default hierarchical, whereas band culture from my studies and having visited nomads is not hierarchical, certainly not the group of people that I hung out with. It was very egalitarian. So these food processes that you explored cause obviously wanderers can’t have a fridge with them. They don’t have stills. They don’t have dehydrators, they don’t have canning. They don’t have a cooker. So I’m interested if you weren’t living on a hundred percent, just wild meats. When it came to the plants how were you working with them? How were you preserving them? Were you just working in the moment on a daily basis? I’m curious how you work that relationship.
Lucy: [00:27:33] I was up in Finland for a week in February. That was a week long stone-age project. So we’d been working up to that for a very long time. And I think, especially with the plants and the food side of it, it was a realization of the importance of through the year preserving through drying things.
To have food for the winter time it was minus 20, we were running the fire most evenings. We had a huge clay pot that we were cooking on the fire with. We were in clothes that we’d tanned ourselves. we were living in a stone-age center, it was a replica, like birchbark shelter. And for that time it was seaweeds that I’d harvested and dried. It was acorn and sweet chestnut flours that I’d processed. It was a reindeer that was killed there. It was dried meat from other times it was rendered fat from other times stored in clay pots. It was just like this understanding of the work that goes into being able to feed just 12 people and a two year old who probably ate more than all of us combined.
The work that goes into preserving food for the colder months and for our ancestors, really feeling that that would have been something that happened continuously throughout the year. I am. I’m particularly taking advantage of the huge dehydrator that is the sun in the warmer months.
In France and Sweden, you know, like we would have, we would have fished mostly. We did kill a couple of animals and process the meat and dry the meat into jerky and made pemmican for longer journeys as well. Pemmican is the native American recipe. I’m not sure from which group in particular, but it’s a mixture of pounded dried meat mixed with fat, and mixed with dried berries or herbs. It’s a supposed to be like a whole food. It’s like a human bird ball, essentially. A really good thing to bring on long hikes or trips and because you’re getting a lot of what you need. In different seasons, it was very different. Like in France in May, we were supplementing a lot of food with the greens and the flowers and some of the roots at that time.
And then up in Sweden you could barely walk two steps without squashing about 20 bilberries. So bilberries featured very heavily, as well as all of the fish that we were fishing every day as well. So there were times we were eating completely wild meals. And times when that needed to be supplemented because we’re not hunter-gatherers anymore. It might be in our bones and it might feel familiar, but our lifestyles not conducive to that way of life. And it takes a lot of work and it can only be done in a community of people. That is my biggest takeaway from all of those experiences. It’s not the skills it’s about each other and people, and how we need each other to live.
We don’t have fur or sharp teeth or claws. We just have each other and our ingenuity and our creativity.
Robin: [00:31:00] What would be your advice for someone who’s curious, what would be your advice to, to deepen their personal relationship with wildness, community, foraging, medicines?
Lucy: [00:31:19] I think you’ve already said it is as being curious is key to all of that and asking questions and a willingness to be wrong within obviously safe parameters.
As much as you’re able getting to know what is just within, the surroundings of your home. So getting to know the plants that are at your door or in your local park If you’re able to going on a walk with a forager to learn more. Buying like a book to help you or many books, if you’re able as well. There’s an amazing eco philosopher called John Moriarty. I don’t know if you’ve ever come across his work. And he talks about silver branch perceptions. So this childlike wonder and curiosity about the world and being able to experience it as if for the first time. I think just trying to cultivate that as much as possible in ourselves, which kind of happens anyway, when you start to learn about nature and the different relationships and, Oh my God, I didn’t realize that nettle had so many benefits or I had no idea that my water came from this place. It’s like approaching the world with that kind of curiosity and wonder . I think is key to any beginnings of this and feels very accessible to lots of people and means that people can find the route into this, that is right for them and where they find themselves at. Right now.
Robin: [00:33:03] It is a strange journey. My lineage, I suppose, is what I term and others term, the green path. I had a friend recently who I’d met in India just over a year ago and realized that we lived in the same town and she just off the cuff said, because she’s retired now. She was a midwife and she’s retired and the partners retired and she just said, Oh, I’ve always had a bit of a thing about mushrooms. I like, cause she loves cooking.
I love mushrooms. Can you take us? Mushrooming and I went, well, no, I’m not going to take your mushrooming. Cause I’m a plant-based ethnobotanical researcher. Mushrooms is another kingdom. So I know a few, but I don’t know them solid enough to teach. So I phoned up a friend/colleague who lives 10 miles away.
I said, do you want to take my mates out? So we all went out and from that moment, just spending a couple of hours in the woods. My friend has just gone off on this journey like a rocket. She’s got the books she’s out, she’s continually scanning landscape and. Oh, from what’s and has developed a massive passion, wants to know everything.
I gave them an eyeglass, a loop botanical loop, which if anyone’s listening, get a botanical loop. If you want to blow your synapsis, your brain at a loop and then you will. Yeah. Yeah. Mind-bending nature is an infinite in the infinite tininess of it.
Lucy: [00:34:53] Do you remember the first time you saw a Hazel flower?
Robin: [00:34:57] The little red.
Lucy: [00:34:58] Yeah, I haven’t looked at it through a loop like that. That was one of those moments for me was just like, it’s all here. Like it was underneath my nose and I didn’t see it .
Robin: [00:35:11] I found that with Bilberry flower . Took me into another state. Totally. Cause it was the, the architecture, but I did actually, I did a retreat in Ireland , I’m not sure when I think it might’ve been 2016 and I did it over on the Burren. I gave everybody a loop now that haven’t done many of these retreats, I think I might be doing more with the years and I gave everyone a loop and I said , you’re gonna walk the forest floor.
You get down on your hands and knees and know your bums are sticking up in the air. And you’re, you’re looking just with the loop and you’re not allowed to take it away. You’ve got to explore the forest floor through it. I mean, it was re it was almost spooky. The, the ambiance of the group, the dynamic of the group completely shifted.
And they had just fallen in love like falling down the rabbit hole. It was extraordinary. So loops and that paying attention to the, to the tiny, because so often we get, we get hooked into vast landscapes. I’m going to the Himalayas. Well, that’s great. But walk out your front door and pick up a leaf. You’ll find out how you can have a Himalayan experience right here. You don’t have to go somewhere else . We’ll find the sacred and the everyday. Yeah, totally.
There’s nothing complex about this. It can be, it can be as much as when you go out for your daily walk, just choose to focus on the sound of the wind in the leaves . Put your phone away . Preferably don’t even take it with you. And just start playing with the environment that you find yourself. Through your senses. And obviously foraging is, is eating. So we take that wildness and that experience into our body, which is very powerful. Yeah. So before we wrap and pack, have you got anything you want to finish off with before we get into where people can find you?
Lucy: [00:37:26] I would love to just tell people about this Zine that I’ve produced. I don’t know if you’ve received it yet. Okay. It’s in the post. It’s a zine called Airmid’s Journal. So Airmid in our mythology was kind of our first herbalist. She was the daughter of one of the Dannon, and which were like this ancient race of gods and goddesses.
The story goes that her father killed her brother because he was not a very nice person. and where her brother was buried and where she buried him 365 herb sprung up from his body and Aramid started to cut and to sort these herbs according to where they were found on his body.
And when she did this and her father knew that he was very confronted by the power and the knowledge of his children. He took the plants and scattered them all across Ireland. And it said that Airmid is still searching for is why we’re always still searching for the plants. And I’m trying to assign them to their healing, their healing powers.
And it said that Airmid shared this knowledge first with the Irish travelers and that they continue to share that intent to that ancient and indigenous knowledge of Ireland. And so Airmid’s journal is a Zine that I’ve co-produced with my good friend, Sean Fitzgerald. Who’s done all these incredible illustrations and it’s bringing together stories and myths and folklore and cures of the plants of Ireland and really trying to represent the intersectional voices as well in Ireland and further a field.
So the first issue of that is released and that’s available on my website. With full intention to begin the second issue after Samhain and, uh, over winter months.
Robin: [00:39:27] Is this an ongoing project?
Lucy: [00:39:29] We hope so. The first issue has been so well received. I didn’t expect to turn into a post office quite so quickly.
It was a dream of mine for a very, very long time and know that it’s out there and it can see how hungry people are for something like this. We really want to continue it. We’re also reaching out to people who would like to contribute to get in touch with us at – email@example.com.
Robin: [00:39:59] Do you want to spell that?
Lucy: [00:40:01] AIRMIDS JOURNAL.
Robin: [00:40:06] So people can find you at wildawake.ie. Is that right?
Lucy: [00:40:13] Well they can find something about me.
Robin: [00:40:16] A digital representation?
Lucy: [00:40:20] Not actually there. Yeah. I mean, I, I really, I have full intentions of updating that website more frequently. But they can also find me on Instagram at – instagram.com/wildawakeireland -.
Robin: [00:40:34] Wonderful. Well, thank you, Lucy. Have you on one, did you on for a long time and everybody check out Lucy o’Hagan’s work. Thank you.
Lucy: [00:40:47] Thank you.